Interview: Alan Bond, Entreprenuer: 5th June 2003
(Credit: ABC Enough Rope)

Kerry Packer once famously said of this man, 'You only get one Alan Bond in your lifetime,' and how right he was. There couldn't possibly be two with this story. In the last 20 years, he's gone from being an America's Cup hero, billionaire tycoon and Australian of the Year, to being bankrupt, put in jail and disgraced. Tonight, for the first time, he's agreed to speak openly about his extraordinary life. Ladies and gentlemen, Alan Bond.

Welcome, Alan. Your chair is the same height. Welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us tonight.

Alan Bond, former entrepreneur: Oh, it's a pleasure to be here, in, er, lovely Sydney.

Andrew Denton: You said to the 'Financial Review' a couple of weeks ago, when asked about coming on the show, you said I can ask you anything I like. Do you stand by that?

Alan Bond: Absolutely.

Andrew Denton: Anything at all?

Alan Bond: Anything you like.

Andrew Denton: I'm starting with a tough one. Are you ready?

Alan Bond: That's alright.

Andrew Denton: How are you, Alan?

Alan Bond: I'm feeling pretty good, thanks.

Andrew Denton: You good, fit?

Alan Bond: I'm fine.

Andrew Denton: In real good health?

Alan Bond: Yes.

Alan Bond: It's a big ride we're going on tonight. Yours has been an amazing life. Let's start when you were a little tacker. By all accounts, your mum Kathleen absolutely adored you. How did she demonstrate that?

Alan Bond: Well, I think she was always praising me. I think that's… Mothers tend to do that with their sons. But, er…she encouraged me a lot and she was quite a businesswoman in her own right and she had great determination and great energy. I'm sure I got part of that from her.

Andrew Denton: She seems like an extraordinary woman. When you were a grown man, you used to have to — according to your book — make appointments to see her. You'd drink tea out of a silver service and talk from an arranged list of subjects. What an unusual woman.

Alan Bond: Yes, it was a very formal affair. As time goes on, she was very Victorian in her outlook and she wanted to have her questions answered. She must have followed you — with the questions first. But she'd prepare the…a tea and we'd go either afternoon tea or morning tea and the silver teapot was there and there was to be no disturbances, and she had a typed list out of all the things that she wanted to ask and we went through them — one by one they were ticked off.

Andrew Denton: Did she send you the list beforehand so you could prepare?

Alan Bond: Not at all. Bit like this program.

Andrew Denton: What if… Of course! What if you deviated from the list and went off subject? Was that…bad news?

Alan Bond: There was no deviating from the list. There were a myriad things… She was an intelligent woman in world affairs and was conscious of what was going on around the world and wanted to exchange her views or get her answers.

Andrew Denton: In 1960, you had your first big land deal in Lesmurdie, in the foothills of WA, of Perth, and there's a great story about how you and Eileen were literally cramming cash into a beach bag. They must have been pretty exciting days.

Alan Bond: Yeah, they were. I mean, it was quite different then. There weren't very much hire-purchase in those days. People came along, whether they were Italian migrants wanting to buy blocks of land…they'd actually bring the cash with you. So we had this big bag and Eileen would put the money into the bag and we had a…we had a… It was in those days where, if you had really good quality land… We had this sort of wooden clock and, um, we'd give people five-minute options. When you got a five, you'd look at the block, come back in five minutes, see if you wanted to buy it. They had to make their mind up. Those were the days.

Andrew Denton: You were quite ingenious in your methods that you'd use to sell things. In your book, you tell a story about Yanchep on the WA coast — a technique you employed to interest people in what was effectively sandhills. What was that technique?

Alan Bond: Well, when we…decided to do this huge development — and this is over 17km of ocean front and it's going to house 250,000 people. And the sand dunes… When they were clearing — when the roads were there — there was just nothing but the dunes left. And the wind blows strong off the ocean in WA. It's, er… If you're standing there, when you've just opened these roads, you can get sandblasted. So what I did was come up with the idea that we would spray the sandhills with a thin bitumen, put some grass seeds in it and a lot of paint in with the bitumen. So we sprayed it to hold the sand down and of course it was green, so they looked like green hills. And, er, looked good in the brochures.

Andrew Denton: Yeah. Let's skip forward to '83 when…when Bond Corp is now the biggest company in WA, worth a couple of hundred million dollars or more, and…on September 26, 1983, everything changed for you when you won the America's Cup. Beyond being a sporting triumph, it was also a business triumph, wasn't it? Was there a bank in the world, after that, that wouldn't take your call?

Alan Bond: They were all knocking on the door and walking in the front door. There was no shortage of offers for anywhere in the world, whether it be France, Europe, Germany, America, and even Australian banks did some wonderful things at that stage.

Andrew Denton: End result of the boom in your business, as a result of America's Cup and your influence, is that by about 1988, you were one of the biggest businessmen in the country. You had the biggest media company, one of the largest brewing companies in the world, you had goldmines, the Chilean phone company, satellites, oil wells, property around the world, and…your own Van Gogh, valued at about US$54 million. I mean, it was absolutely huge and you'd really entered the realm of the mega-rich. You speak very affectionately in your book — because you had some great toys — of, er…one of your schooners which led the world in…at the time in terms of its fittings. Can you describe that to us? It sounded magnificent.

Alan Bond: It was built in carbon fibre, the whole craft, and huge strength so you didn't have to have any columns or piers inside, and so we could have like a dining room for…which was, er…you could seat 20 at the dining table, and, er, the actual table itself came down from the ceiling and, er…on two small columns on each end. And, er, so the…there was no stands underneath the table. And we had some wonderful dinners down there. It was painted black and the seats were red. It had a lot of, er, interesting fittings in…on that yacht.

Andrew Denton: We're talking golden…

Alan Bond: Well, mostly, funnily enough, not gold, but it was…it had inlaid marble. They cut the marble into…an eighth of an inch thick marble, and the walls of the passageway were lined with this marble created on a foam…a foam egg crate. And so the walls were all different-coloured marbles, and the floors…just to give you some feel of it, and the state rooms were equally as impressive. The main saloon area had a split level, with a grand piano on the mid-level and the various lounges…

Andrew Denton: This was a yacht?

Alan Bond: This was a yacht, yes.

Andrew Denton: OK. Was all this necessary? Because I mean, I know, just to, uh…just the upkeep of that was more than $10,000 a week, whether it was moored or not. I know you had a fleet of four long-range jets which cost about $20 million a year. Was it all necessary for business?

Alan Bond: Well, we did fantastic business on there. I didn't get around to telling you, it had a communications centre on board and with two satellite communications. The business worldwide could be conducted from the yacht. We made some marvellous deals on that boat. And we were able to entertain royally, literally.

Andrew Denton: In 1987, you bought Channel Nine off Kerry Packer for $1.2 billion. What was it like dealing with Kerry?

Alan Bond: It was only $1 billion.

Andrew Denton: So take us through the actual negotiations.

Alan Bond: We arranged to meet in the Wentworth Hotel in the suite that I was over here staying in. And, er, when we first sat down, we said, "We're either going to sell our stations to you for $400 million, or you're going to sell your stations to us." And he said, "Well, I don't really want to sell my stations." And I said, "Oh, is that right?" So, anyway, after much discussion, Kerry thumped the table and said, "Listen, if you can pay me $1 billion, I'll sell them to you, otherwise bugger off." And in those sort of tones, that was Kerry.

Andrew Denton: We've all had that conversation with Kerry, yes.

Alan Bond: And, um, so, I, um…I discussed it with, er, my colleagues and then I rang the National Australia Bank. I said, "Look, I'm in discussions here to buy these television stations. Kerry will sell to me, and what I want to do is put our stations together and then, with Sky Channel, I'm going to float it off as a separate entity and raise the capital to pay for it." He said, "How much money do you need?" I said, "I think I'll get it for $800 million. He said $1 billion, but I think I'll get it for $800 million." He said, "I'll talk to some of the board directors and I'll give you an answer tomorrow." If you go and ask for $100,000 from the bank, they want to know everything about you and they give you an answer in a month. Anyway, you want $800 million…

Andrew Denton: Writing this down. $800 million — I can get it tomorrow. Beautiful.

Alan Bond: He duly rang back and said yes. I said, "Thank God. "I'll go and have some further negotiations with Kerry," which I did. And true to his word, he never budged one penny off it. So I settled the deal with $800 million and a $200 million note. So he put his own $200 million in. So I had $1 billion. And we put our other two stations up as collateral, which were worth probably $400 million.

Andrew Denton: Was that the biggest cheque you ever wrote?

Alan Bond: Um…well, I didn't write cheques in Bond Corporation, in any event. They were written by the Treasury.

Andrew Denton: Sure, but humour me here, Alan.

Alan Bond: Um, yes, yes, it was a big sum of money…

Andrew Denton: Did you sleep well on the nights when you theoretically wrote a cheque for $1.2 billion?

Alan Bond: You know, you don't really think of it in those contexts. You look at the overall business plan. And obviously, we had models out that showed the income over 10 years, cash generating capability. All that's sort of absorbed in your mind before you're into the negotiations and how it's going to come out. You know, I slept perfectly well.

Andrew Denton: When you sold Nine back to Packer in 1990, when you needed cash again, you sold it back for about half the price, and that's when he said, "You only get one Alan Bond in your lifetime." Was he right?

Alan Bond: I think so. He had an opportunity to get it back. It wasn't doing as well then under our management. We couldn't get the profits out that he was indicating we should've got out. I think he's probably right. His management team was better than ours.

Andrew Denton: He must've loved you, because he got it back for half the price.

Alan Bond: He got the best of me.

Andrew Denton: He got the best of you?

Alan Bond: He did a fantastic deal for himself. Sold it, made this huge profit on it and bought it back for… It wasn't half-price. It was $700 million when you took the account…

Andrew Denton: But what's $700 million between friends? How much of an aphrodisiac is money and power?

Alan Bond: I made money when I was very young — when I was 18. I wanted to have £1 million by the time I was 21. And I set out to do that. It was important to me to get that £1 million for the safety and security of my family. After that, it was never an object in my mind — just the physical making of money. It was only the measure of the success of the transaction, how much money you made. You don't say, "Look, I want to make this much money." It comes with actually doing things and doing them well.

Andrew Denton: I guess what I'm asking is, in basic terms, how attractive is the size of your transaction? And the reason I ask that is that in the book, you talk about the very public affairs you had when you were still married to your wife Eileen, with Diana Bliss and Tracey Tyler. Why was it that you weren't able to control yourself in those situations?

Alan Bond: That's a long way from money. How did you get to that one?

Andrew Denton: Well…the reason I'm asking is, I said is money and power an aphrodisiac?

Alan Bond: When you're in a position where you think you've got a lot of ego and you might perceive it as power — I'm not too sure whether that's the right word. But certainly, the, er…if you're in a position to make things happen, it…that allows you tremendous opportunities which other people don't have.

Andrew Denton: There's an extraordinary passage in the book where you talk about you and other businessmen. Some people on your board would be having lunch at a restaurant in Perth, talking about your latest deals, and suddenly you find yourself surrounded by six or eight attractive women. That's why I'm asking how much of an aphrodisiac it is, because I think…in fairness, Alan, and I speak on behalf of all the ordinary-looking blokes in the world, would you normally have been attracting these women?

Alan Bond: Well…I'm sure that… Um, Andrew, I think the reality is…

Andrew Denton: Please don't take offence at that line of questioning.

Alan Bond: No, I'm not taking offence at all about it. Not at all. We used to have a relaxing time on Friday afternoons. We went to this marvellous restaurant, which, um…in Perth, and it was where I got the antenna of what was going on in the community. I mean, you start out with a luncheon table for six, and you'd end up with 25 of your closest friends — because I was paying the bill. But, um…and a lot of champagne, of course, and people naturally, er, sort of congregate to that sort of experience, so it is…in that regard, I suppose it is an aphrodisiac for other people, perhaps more so than yourself.

Andrew Denton: You were at the height of your power and wealth in the mid-'80s. Did you have sense that somehow, the rules that bind ordinary people didn't bind you?

Alan Bond: That's a tough one. Um…I've always worked very, very hard, and, uh, the harder I worked, the luckier I got. Um, in the 1980s, there was a sense in the business community that you could stretch the envelope. Um, if you were doing an acquisition or you wanted some planning permission, then the lawyers would work on the principle of, "How do we get round the laws as they are today?" And they would advise you. They wouldn't say, "Look, you can't do it that way." Um, they would find another way to charge you $5 million, and say, "You can do it this way." So I think the laws were stretched, no question about that.

Andrew Denton: This is not a legal question, though, it's a moral question. You very publicly cheated on your wife. Did you feel guilt about that?

Alan Bond: Uh, you're on your second marriage, are you?

Andrew Denton: No, still on my first.

Alan Bond: Still on your first. Once you get to your second, you can perhaps answer the question. Um, I didn't look at it that way, so much, Andrew, quite frankly, and perhaps I should have done — who knows? I was married a long time — wonderful lady, Eileen, my first wife, and just a terrific person. And we were married young — I mean, 18 — and, uh…and we were married a long time, and we…our interests grew apart. I was also very fortunate that I met Diana, who is my second wife. Once again, a beautiful lady, and, uh…and I've been blessed. I've got two…I've had two wonderful wives, and I'm friendly with them both today, which is… And I'm…and I say "friendly with them" — we all have Christmas together — Eileen and Diane, and all the families extended. Uh, it's terrific.

Andrew Denton: In the book, there is not a lot of mention of your family. It's hard to get a sense of your family. Were you close?

Alan Bond: Oh, very close. I thought the… I'm surprised you don't feel that came through in the book, but it's four children, um, and we're very close. We, er…we had, um, in the early years, when they were young, we always went to church on Sundays all together and we went on holidays every year together. I think the, er…we were a close family. We are, today, still close.

Andrew Denton: You write in the book about the death of your daughter Suzanne, in 2000, of a morphine overdose. It's a…it's a brief passage. I assume that's because it was difficult to write about.

Alan Bond: Well, first, the book doesn't actually say that. It actually contradicts that. She asphyxiated.

Andrew Denton: Because of the medication's…?

Alan Bond: Well, partly medication. I mean, she'd flown all the way from London and she had some morphine and she had a sleeping tablet. And she laid on the lounge, and her head was up on the edge of the lounge, and, er, she went into a deep sleep, and then she actually didn't breathe. So, yes, it was the worst thing in my life. I mean, I loved my daughter, Suzanne. She's a wonderful, wonderful girl. I miss her. I mean, I don't know… You don't get over those sorts of things. You learn to live with it, you don't get over it. Um, she just meant so much to me and she's… I mean, the only thing we're blessed with…we've got her son — and my grandson — Charlie, and he's four and a half now. He was only 18 months, then. So, it was a very difficult part of my life.

Andrew Denton: In many ways, her death in 2000 capped what had been a very, very difficult decade for you. We'll go back to 1989 when Bond Corp started falling over. The company posted a loss, uh, that year of almost a billion dollars, the reports of your debts of over $8 billion, you had interest payments of about a billion dollars, I mean, really extraordinary figures. Looking back on it, on the amount that you borrowed, were you greedy?

Alan Bond: I don't think so. I don't think so at all. Of course, we'd do it differently today. You wouldn't do it the same way. But you give those figures, but you forget to say that we had sales of a billion a month. We had a cash flow of a billion dollars a month. Um, so, um…

Andrew Denton: But you still… You… A million… A billion-dollar interest bill every year, that's…

Alan Bond: Oh, well, you put that into context. It's, uh, it's $80 million. You work on a lot bigger margin than 10% of your turnover. All I'm saying is the interest rates in normal times were well and truly serviced.

Andrew Denton: But it wasn't working, though. And this is extraordinary — Bond Brewing, you had almost half the market in Australia. Every second sip of beer taken in Australia is one of yours. And the National Australia Bank ended up taking about $800 million worth of debts. You did the impossible — you went broke brewing beer in Australia!

Alan Bond: Mmm. Well, that's not right, either, Andrew, so I'll correct you. Um, the bottom line of it really is that we had all of our interest payments to date with the National Australia Bank. They objected that we were using some of the surplus cash from that business to buy other assets. And as a consequence of that, they launched a…to put a receiver in, although we'd never been one hour behind with any interest payments, capital or principal.

Andrew Denton: Why would a bank, though, if you were paying all your debts on time — you were probably their biggest borrower in this country, their biggest single corporate borrower — why would they take this action against you? What would prompt that?

Alan Bond: They had no risk whatsoever. They were so well-secured, they couldn't lose a penny.

Andrew Denton: There must have been something, though, that was bothering them.

Alan Bond: Yeah, I'm sure there was.

Andrew Denton: What might that have been?

Alan Bond: Well, I think the principle was that our treasury people had a different view on what they could do with the surplus cash than the bank had.

Andrew Denton: Mmm. There's a saying that if you owe the bank a thousand, it's your problem. If you owe the bank a million, it's the bank's problem. If you owe $10 billion, whose problem is that?

Alan Bond: Um… In the ordinary course of events, when you have a plan, it'd be ridiculous to say that you had $10 billion and you hadn't worked out how to repay the loan. But in fact, we had an asset sales program going on and that debt had crept up because of other acquisitions. We would do it differently today. And the businesses I'm advising in today — I mean, there's no question about it. We…we…we're having less gearing, not because the gearing ratio to the value of assets were there, it was the quantum that the Australian market couldn't digest.

Andrew Denton: What do you mean? Your company was too big?

Alan Bond: It was too big, in…financially, at that time, in this market, for that debt level. Now, you must also remember that that debt level you're talking about included Holmes a Court's debt, in…the Bell Group debt. And it was not intended to buy that business, only to buy 20% of it. There was a lot of complications.

Andrew Denton: The Bell Group — and we'll get to that in a while — that…that had $1,200 million cash!

Alan Bond: Um, no, it didn't.

Andrew Denton: It's better than debt.

Alan Bond: No, it didn't, it had… One subsidiary company had $1.2 billion.

Andrew Denton: But you're not seriously arguing Bell Resources was a company in the red when you took it over?!

Alan Bond: It had $4 billion of debt in the Bell Group.

Andrew Denton: Alright, we'll get to that.

Alan Bond: And you've…and people pick up ONE subsidiary company had some money, but there was $4 billion of debt.

Andrew Denton: Why take over a company of $4 billion debt? Where was the business sense?

Alan Bond: Well, we looked at it. And we didn't really want to take it over. We bought 20% of it, the Government bought 20% of it, that's what we intended to stop. Then there was a transaction which you can read in detail in the book — we could spend an hour just discussing…

Andrew Denton: Let's not — we'll lose everybody. It is interesting, though, because you say in the book that from 1985, you were pretty much overseas 10 months of the year, dealing with Bond International. A lot of the running of the company fell to your managing director, Peter Beckwith. That's true?

Alan Bond: That's correct.

Andrew Denton: We actually have a clip of Peter Beckwith from 'This is Your Life' back in 1979.

Peter Beckwith, former Bond Corp managing director: Uh, we've worked pretty hard together and, thanks to Alan, normally in pretty good humour, thanks to Alan's pretty good approach to life. Um, CSBP stands for 'Credit Stealers and Buck Passers'. And Alan, I'm prepared to say here today that we really know the buck stops with you and sometimes we try and steal the credit.

Andrew Denton: Now, Peter died of a brain tumour back in 1990. And you suggest in the book that some of the poor business decisions he made which badly impacted on your business were because of his illness. Is that right?

Alan Bond: I think so. But one — only one particular decision that comes…that had such a devastating effect. We had 20% of Bell and the Government had 20% of Bell. And the board asked him to negot… The Stock Exchange were requiring a full bid. Now, there was no obligation for us to bid for that at all. But he did go out and make an arrangement to bid for the company. It was announced, and the board was told afterwards, which meant that we really had to stand by the announcement or get rid of Peter.

Andrew Denton: And you think this error in judgment was because he was unwell?

Alan Bond: Yes, it was. There was no question about that. I spoke to his doctors and spoke to Peter at length. And he was my dearest, dearest friend. And I can't tell you, you know, anything else than that. I held his hand for nearly all the day before he passed away…

Andrew Denton: Is it not a bit convenient to blame a dead man for a business mistake? A major business mistake?

Alan Bond: Well, everybody makes business mistakes. I mean, I take the responsibility, and I did — I was the captain of the ship. And I took that responsibility. I stayed here for the very reason. It happens to be a fact of life. That's what it is.

Andrew Denton: The reason I ask is because you said something similar back in 1994 and Peter's widow Valerie was very upset. She said, "Alan knows very well Peter worked himself to death for Bond Corporation." And you publicly apologised to her. And I'm surprised that you would repeat a similar assertion in this book, knowing how painful it was to your friend's widow back in '94.

Alan Bond: Well, maybe the truth is painful to some people. And that's unfortunate. But he was one of my dearest friends. I can't tell you anything more than that. Um, to suggest that, you know, people get a tumour on the brain because they work so hard is… I mean, I should have three tumours, if that was the case. I mean, some people do. And it just… That's what life has dished out to you.

Andrew Denton: As things were starting to go pear-shaped for Bond Corp and lawyers and receivers and judges were coming into the picture, you would take solace by going into the boardroom and looking at your Van Gogh, is that right?

Alan Bond: Um, no, that's not right.

Andrew Denton: Did I read the same book, Alan?!

Alan Bond: I don't think so.

Andrew Denton: It's what the book says.

Alan Bond: I don't think so. I think you can take the line out of context there, and that's fine. If you…I hope people will read the book and come to a different conclusion.

Andrew Denton: So where you say you'd go and looked at the Van Gogh and you would sometimes stroke it — I misread that bit?

Alan Bond: No, you didn't misread it. You misread it in the context. If you… What you said, when lawyers and judges would come round, I'd walk in, stroke the painting — that's not what the book says.

Andrew Denton: So when DID you look at it?

Alan Bond: Where… I said to you…I said, the book, what was written in the book — look at it very carefully yourself again — which you've only had… But it's there for everybody to read. Have a good read, make your own mind up. But it's…I think what I was trying to express there was that the Van Gogh painting was a wonderful painting. And to appreciate Van Gogh, to be able to touch the painting, where he'd made those strokes, where we have the colours of the blue of the iris, is a…was a marvellous feeling.

Andrew Denton: You talk about the many, many gifts you bought your family, and millions of dollars of gifts. You defend that. You say, "I was a billionaire. I could afford it. And they're my family — I wanted to see that they were independent." That is what you said, right?

Alan Bond: That's right.

Andrew Denton: Good. Thank God we agree on something. I'm trying to make sure I'm talking to the same Bond!

Alan Bond: Maybe we're reading the book differently.

Andrew Denton: However, you bought some things for Eileen, in the year before Bond Corp posted its loss of almost a billion dollars. You bought her about $4 million worth of diamonds. You bought her a Bentley Turbo and you bought for Suzanne a $350,000 necklace. I've never run a big company, so you'll have to guide me here. Is it appropriate — when the figures are starting to look bad — from the shareholders' point of view, is it appropriate to be buying these things for your family?

Alan Bond: Well, let's cover this. First, they weren't the public company's money. It was my own money. I had the gold company listed on the stock exchange in…in New York, capitalised at about $800 million. I had Queensland Nickel generating huge amounts of money. So from a family point of view…which were 100%-owned, we had substantial cash flow.

Andrew Denton: Isn't that what lots of people got upset about, though, is that all these public companies lost a huge amount of money but your family ended up with a lot of goodies? Isn't that what upsets them?

Alan Bond: Well, I don't think…I don't know that, really. I mean, people…

Andrew Denton: Don't you?

Alan Bond: Well, people write these sorts of things out, but the reality is that I was the largest shareholder in Bond Corporation. I had 51%.

Andrew Denton: Mmm.

Alan Bond: So I lost all my shareholding. So the fact that I'd spent a few million dollars, quite frankly, buying some personal things was…was not a major event.

Andrew Denton: To somebody that lost all their money in one of your companies, they might see that differently.

Alan Bond: Well, yes, they may, but you've got to separate from the risk when you buy shares on the market. And, you know, not everybody lost money. I mean, this is a misnomer. I mean, you know, I feel terribly sorry for people that did lose money. There's no question about that. And I fought so hard for them not to lose money. And that's not very clearly understood.

Andrew Denton: Can we agree on these figures, Alan? That you personally went bankrupt for $622 million — still the second-largest personal bankruptcy in history — of which you paid back $3.5 million, half a cent in the dollar. Bond Corp…

Alan Bond: Stop there.

Andrew Denton: No, we're…

Alan Bond: No, no, let's stop there. That's not right.

Andrew Denton: That's not the settlement?

Alan Bond: It's not right at all.

Andrew Denton: You do realise this is being broadcast to people that read the papers and saw this.

Alan Bond: Absolutely, but it's just not right.

Andrew Denton: Yeah?

Alan Bond: I mean, so let's cover that. The… When you're in a bankruptcy, a creditor bank can claim 100 cents in the dollar. Even though he sells your assets and gets 94 cents back, he still claims 100 cents. So in my case, the banks took $350 million of assets — they could've got $1 billion for them — and then they still claimed the $600…the $350 million in the bankruptcy even though they were only owed about $5 million.

Andrew Denton: It's not true that…

Alan Bond: That's the facts of the matter. I don't mind facts speaking for themselves.

Andrew Denton: It's not true that, in the end, with your personal bankruptcy, how you were discharged from your bankruptcy is you settled for half a cent in the dollar — isn't that the fact?

Alan Bond: Why do you think they took that?

Andrew Denton: That was all they could get.

Alan Bond: That's not true at all. The reality is that they'd already grabbed the Queensland Nickel assets which were worth $1 billion, and, you know, only had it six months — it was floated back to the market for $1 billion. So it could've saved…it could've paid all of the debt off, but the greedy little banks grabbed the asset at the expense of everybody else, so…and then had the audacity to put their claim in for the whole of the money again.

Andrew Denton: So the banks were greedy?

Alan Bond: The banks were terribly greedy. They grabbed the assets…

Andrew Denton: Why aren't the banks doing this interview, Alan? How come they haven't written a book about what went wrong?

Alan Bond: Well, you know, it's very interesting you should say that. You're going to have to read it in some detail because I really do take a lot of the image there…

Andrew Denton: Did you ever deceive anyone for business?

Alan Bond: I don't believe so. At all.

Andrew Denton: Really?

Alan Bond: No. I'm…straight-out, frank and, er, what you see is what you get.

Andrew Denton: Whenever I mention to people, "I'm interviewing Alan Bond," they say, "Oh, has he got his memory back?" Because they remember you from those court cases in 1994 where you were apparently very, very sick. How sick were you?

Alan Bond: I was very, very ill. I was in a very deep state of depression and I just couldn't remember anything. I mean, I couldn't even remember two hours before. It would…just went…it just went blank. And I had an infection of the kidneys and I was in no position to actually attend anything.

Andrew Denton: The court had you examined by some neurological experts and they found differently, didn't they? They found that they could see no…that they could see some physical problems but they could see no indication of memory loss.

Alan Bond: Do you know, that's, um…not right either. Um, but that doesn't surprise me. That's not in the book, but…the…

Andrew Denton: Is it possible that things happened that weren't in the book, Alan?

Alan Bond: Well, I could fill five books. I could fill five books.

Andrew Denton: I'm sure you could.

Alan Bond: So is it practical…how far you go into everything? But what you're talking about now was in a different time in the sense that I'd had open-heart surgery and I had some embolisms and the embolisms showed on them that there was some… I had some minor…strokes during the period of that open-heart surgery. And you could go to 10 heart specialists and they'd tell you in 10% of cases little air bubbles get in…

Andrew Denton: But what I'm talking about wasn't a different time, this was when your doctors told the court you were too sick to testify. They had you examined and they found you weren't.

Alan Bond: That's not true either. They didn't. The court never did an examination.

Andrew Denton: Two neurological experts?

Alan Bond: They did not do an examination. They examined…they examined the X-rays. I was never given an examination other than by our own independent doc…independent doctor. I was very ill. I mean, the reality is if anybody's been in deep depression, you can attest to it — you either were or you weren't. And I really was in a very, very difficult position. Um, you know, it was life-threatening, really. So I can only leave it at that.

Andrew Denton: I don't reckon most people believe you. Why do you think that is?

Alan Bond: Well, I think a lot of people do believe it, quite frankly.

Andrew Denton: It's just that I'm going on the reaction… It's always the same. "Has he got his memory back?"

Alan Bond: That's a standard joke around town. "Got your memory back?" But the reality is that I was, and I'd had enormous pressure and the system was…er, had stopped. I was on heavy medication. Um, I was…I had been in a, um…in with a psychologist and I'd been hospitalised for a week prior to this and I was in a pretty difficult position, quite frankly.

Andrew Denton: Let's talk about something else that's not in the book. I'm sorry about this, but the receiver that was taking you to court at this time, when you were too ill to remember, subpoenaed the phone records from the hotel you were staying at during the court case. And according to the phone records, you would be in the stand, not being able to remember much, if anything, then you'd go home and you'd make calls to Switzerland, USA, UK, India, Pakistan, Singapore, also 24 calls to a businessman in Australia with whom you were setting up a gold deal, that you went on to send faxes, 65 international calls, including one to a phone box at Zurich railway station, six to the Zurich Hilton and one to a number Swiss authorities identified as the Zuger Kantonalbank. How could that have happened?

Alan Bond: You know, when you're at the point of a nervous breakdown, um, you do silly things. You ring everybody and you don't even know what you're doing.

Andrew Denton: You were just ringing the Swiss bank to…"I'm whooooo!"

Alan Bond: I never made a call to a Swiss bank. I mean, that's ridiculous to say that, 'cause it's not true. But the bottom line of it is, though, that I made lots of calls, but it's like a person's having a nervous breakdown — you're hyperactive, you're being…I was on huge medication. And you come out of the court, you can hardly stand, you get back to the hotel, and then your mind is just racing, and you just ring everybody that you can think of and you're doing calls and you're making silly conversations. And that's what occurred.

Andrew Denton: So it was a cry for help?

Alan Bond: Um, it was on the verge of a nervous breakdown to such an extent that, um, there was no logic to what I was doing. There was just no logic at all.

Andrew Denton: Later that year you took the stand again. You actually collapsed on the first day in court. Do you remember that?

Alan Bond: Um, I was very ill.

Andrew Denton: Mm.

Alan Bond: Um…

Andrew Denton: You actually had to physically excuse yourself.

Alan Bond: Well, that was…that happened a couple of times, actually, but, er…

Andrew Denton: Because that same day you collapsed in court, three businessmen on St Bees Island in the Whitsundays saw you, and they came over to Perth and gave secret testimony, and the testimony was that that very weekend, 48 hours beforehand, you'd been with them, snorkelling and walking and conducting business deals, and were in rude good health. Now, how do we explain that?

Alan Bond: Well, that's not true. I wasn't in good health at all. I'd gone to the Whi… I'd gone to St Bees Island to try and have a rest. And the mind was still very active. It was like, um… It was like a hyperactive situation. You can't sleep, you're constantly awake, and you're physically exhausted and you talk about things. Um, and we were talking about all sorts of things that when you look back on it now, they just didn't make any sense at all.

Andrew Denton: Should you have been up for a Logie, really, Alan?

Alan Bond: Um… Er, no, I should have had a lot more compassion. And people who've had depression that will watch this program will understand, and those who haven't had it, er, hope they never do get it.

Andrew Denton: It's a hideous disease and I couldn't agree with that more. In the book — in this book, which I've read, you, um…

Alan Bond: Partially read it. Perhaps you didn't understand it.

Andrew Denton: You're right. There were a whole lot of things I didn't understand. And that's why it's great we have a chance to chat. In the book, you suggest that there was a conspiracy to get you to court, to bring you down, that people in power wanted to see you brought down.

Alan Bond: Yes.

Andrew Denton: What people?

Alan Bond: Um, when you…when I refer to the probable conspiracy, you had a secret meeting of the attorney-generals that…that brought in the Sulan inquiry. Who organised that? Who was the guiding hand that started that? Was it members of the then government? Because it's never happened before in this country.

Andrew Denton: Why would they want to bring you down?

Alan Bond: Um, there was all sorts of speculation.

Andrew Denton: Why do YOU think?

Alan Bond: Well, we were very powerful in the media. We got too big in WA for the…for WA.

Andrew Denton: It puzzles me, though, because you were mates with these people. Brian Burke was your mate. Peter Dowding was your mate. Bob Hawke said publicly in 1987 what a good bloke you were against your critics. You gave…Bond Corp gave literally millions to the governments of the day. Why would they turn on you?

Alan Bond: Um… One doesn't know the answer to that question. But if you think about the pol…the politics of… We owned the…all the Nine Network in WA, we owned a lot of the radio stations, and here we were controlling the newspapers as well. We had the power to change the government if we wanted to change the government. And I think that frightened them.

Andrew Denton: In '96, you were sentenced to three years jail, er, fraud for $15 million, relating to the Manet painting, and in '97, sentenced to four years jail after pleading guilty to the Bell Resources fraud, still the biggest one in Australia. And you ceased being Alan Bond. You became Her Majesty's prisoner 80101. What is it to go to prison?

Alan Bond: Well, first, let me set the scene for you…because people don't understand it was 'La Promenade'. What was that all about?

Andrew Denton: Can I stop you there? I just want to talk about your prison days first.

Alan Bond: 'La Promenade' painting was a…it was…the case was about… And you need to know this, otherwise it doesn't lead in correctly.

Andrew Denton: I'm getting a glimpse into your trial process here.

Alan Bond: The reality was that… The charge was that I took away the opportunity for Bond Corporation to buy a painting. Now, that's crazy. I mean, what? Bond Corporation were never in the business of buying paintings anyway. I just want to put that in. So then I…

Andrew Denton: But in the end, you went to jail for fraud.

Alan Bond: For three years.

Andrew Denton: Three years.

Andrew Denton: That did happen?

Alan Bond: Yes, it did. To go to prison for something that there…you knew you were innocent of is twice as difficult to go to prison for something to which you're guilty of.

Andrew Denton: Were you scared?

Alan Bond: Um…I was depressed. Um…initially when I went in in that first period, no, I wasn't scared, per se, but later on, I had reason to be so.

Andrew Denton: You were attacked, weren't you? What happened?

Alan Bond: Um, yes, I was. In, um…er… They have a phone system and I moved on and I got into a dormitory block and the phone system had a metal, um, line. Instead of a cord line, it was a metal line, one of these sprung metal lines. And I was on the phone and he obviously…something had gone wrong in the family-wise, or whatever it was. So he just raced up and grabbed the phone out of my hand, put the wire around my neck and was, you know, choking me to death. And would have killed me, no question about that. And you're in an area to which, when something like that happens, the officers, even though they're looking in through glass into the block, they don't come in, 'cause it's too risky. They wait till there's a whole group of them gathered. So, you know, minutes go past before there's any interaction of them coming in to see what's going on. And I was very fortunate that one of the other chaps there managed to pull this guy off, but I've still got a graze on my face, on the right-hand side, from the graze there and a burn on my neck that hasn't gone away.

Andrew Denton: In the book, when you're talking about other prisoners, you say, "People do the wrong thing. You can't change that. But you must try and find forgiveness." How important is forgiveness to you? How important is it for you to be forgiven by Australia?

Alan Bond: You have to look at this in the context, and I'm going to only answer to you in the context that I wish to answer it, and that is that I found that in prison that I had more time to read the Bible, I had more time to contemplate life, and more time to look upon my fellow man. And I worked very hard during the period in there to help other people in the same situation. And I think that even in the most dastardly people, there are…there is a goodness there, and you've got to find that goodness. People have to make their own judgment whether they're going to say, "Well, we'll read the book. We'll make a judgment." Because this is the first time that I've given an interview like this, and it's the first time that my words are in this book, that people have an opportunity to listen to me rather then to listen to sensational journalism, in…which is only interested in fire, floods and famine. And you can make a story out of every day from mine.

Andrew Denton: Don't forget the 'F' word, 'fraud'.

Alan Bond: People, as I say, must make their own judgment on forgiveness. And I think that in… It's important that you do go on and you do have a 'rest of your life' and for whatever the reasons, whether I think it was right or it wasn't right, I stayed and I saw the thing through, I survived the prison, and now I believe the rest of my life is mine. It's not there for people to, uh…to abuse.

Andrew Denton: You also say in the book, speaking of the other prisoners, that for them to find forgiveness they must first of all, uh…accept what it is they've done before they can find forgiveness. Do you accept what it is you did?

Alan Bond: Yes, I do. I believe that I lost shareholders money, and that's all. And there is… Given the opportunity to do something different, you would do it differently, with hindsight. Of course we would. And, um…

Andrew Denton: But you don't believe you were guilty, though, do you?

Alan Bond: I believe that the, um…the charges, as they were put, were not correct. I was guilty of losing some shareholders money, no question. If that's the penalty I've served, I accept that. And that's the only thing. The rest of it is just, um…political hobjob.

Andrew Denton: We talked before about your personal bankruptcy of 620-plus million. Now, a lot of people reckon, because you've lived very comfortably ever since, that you had money stowed away somewhere overseas. That must be a painful allegation for you.

Alan Bond: Well, it is, 'cause it's not true. I mean…

Andrew Denton: It'd be a low act to lose all that money for people and be funnelling it away overseas. That would be a low act.

Alan Bond: You know, to get started again two and a half years ago, I had to pass the hat around for some friends to get going again, and they put up a couple of million dollars for me to get started again in business. I didn't need to… If I had money, I wouldn't have done that. And that was eating humble pie — going to them, asking them to put the money up. And my family put some money up as well. But there was not one penny overseas that I had which was mine.

Andrew Denton: You're legally entitled to be a company director again in two years, in this country. Are you a man that can be trusted?

Alan Bond: I believe so. I'm actually operating in businesses in other parts of the world now, and people are trusting me, and we're doing some worthwhile…activities. And so people take the view differently to the harshness to which you would like the audience to, uh…to adapt, quite frankly. And yes, I can be trusted.

Andrew Denton: Thanks for coming in tonight. As Dave Allen said, "May your God go with you." Thank you, Alan.

Alan Bond: Thank you.

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